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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptics on

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episode number 244 the 26 of may 2013

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Richardson's here with you from Sydney

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Australia what a glorious beautiful

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weekend it's been in Sydney Australia

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just lovely Pleasant weather good for

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getting out and about coming up on this

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week's show more of the media's attack

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on the Australian vaccination network

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very good to see in newspapers radio and

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television in fact we're going to kick

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off with the report in The Sunday

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Telegraph here in Sydney reporting on

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the vilification and abuse suffered by

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Tony and David McCaffrey we'll get to

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that pretty soon and after that it's the

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first of a two parter dr. a Judas this

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week dr. Richie was a guest on the

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project on the Ten Network here in

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Australia so I'll play the audio from

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that speaking about the current

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situation with vaccinations and later on

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in the show dr. 'he interviews Andy

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Lewis from cuoco meter Oh picometer

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depending on how you'd like to say it an

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interview she conducted at the recent

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QED Khan in Manchester also on this

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week's show a week in science from our

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good friends at the Royal Institution of

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Australia w WR I a uso GA you and to

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round off the show and interview with

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with me I was on radio to UE here in

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Sydney just the other night chatting to

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marry Wilton about skepticism included

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in that interview is details about my

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upcoming talk in Canberra in fact it'll

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be on the first of June first of June in

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Canberra more information coming up

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later in the show and a big shout out to

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my friends of the skeptics guide to the

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universe podcast I was a guest rogue on

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the episode that just went out a bit

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earlier today in fact always great fun

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to be on the skeptics guide I consider

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all the people on that show my good

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friends and it's great to catch up so

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for those who listened I hope you

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enjoyed it and if you haven't heard that

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episode yet I hope you will enjoy it

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when you give it a listen and just

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before we get into this week's show a

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big reminder for those people listening

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in Australia tonight sunday night

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tonight on SBS one at eight-thirty you

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can watch the documentary jabbed and I

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sincerely recommend you hit the record

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button it's a keeper it's a great

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documentary tonight SBS one SBS TV watch

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out for the documentary jammed but for

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now I'm going to run downstairs mmm I'm

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gonna cook myself up the hot dog here

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haven't had one of those long time hott

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Dogg with hott English mustard oh yes

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uh-uh unholy but a goodie well I'm doing

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I heard before me the sunday telegraph

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newspaper dated the 26 of may 2013 front

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page is a picture of Tony McCaffrey

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holding a photograph of her daughter

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Dana Dana who died in 2009 it's half the

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page and the headline says exclusive a

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mother's grief I was vilified Tony

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McCaffrey lost her beautiful for we gold

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baby Dana to whooping cough in 2009 then

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the victimization started anti-vaccine

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lobbyists alleged Dana must have died of

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other causes demanding to see her

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autopsy results and told Ms McCaffrey

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and her husband David to harden the F up

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today as part of our no jab at no play

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campaign The Sunday Telegraph exposes

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the bullies so you turn to page six and

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seven and double page spread featuring

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another picture of Tony McCaffrey near

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the grave of her daughter and Dana

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grieving family suffers venomous attacks

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on daughter's memory exclusive by Jane

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Hansen the family who lost their

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four-week old daughter to whooping cough

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have revealed the intensive harassment

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they endured at the hands of the

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anti-vaccination campaigners Tony and

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David McCaffrey have broken their

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silence on for years of vilification

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they have endured since baby Dana died

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in 2009 attacks against the family

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include anonymous letters cyber attacks

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and heartless abusive messages telling

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them to harden the F up they have been

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accused of lying about their daughter's

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death and being part of conspiracy to

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force a vaccination on others Australian

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vaccination Network avian founder Meryl

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Dory even posted her own

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anti-vaccination information on Dana

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McCaffrey's memorial website

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dori also demanded autopsy reports from

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public health officials the day before

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the four-week-old baby's funeral when

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asked by The Sunday Telegraph to comment

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on these allegations miss Dorry declined

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saying she would answer the questions on

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her own website Tony McCaffrey said the

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lunacy and venom directed at us has been

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torture it's been frightening abhorrent

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and insensitive in the extreme she said

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she had received three anonymous letters

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at her home which included avn pamphlets

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the family's campaign to raise awareness

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of the importance of immunizing children

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has made them targets of harassment she

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said one man a regular on the avian

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forums emailed the family via Dana's

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website the email reads we find it

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amazing that some people firmly believe

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that God was not perfect apparently

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according to these people God forgot to

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add the heavy toxic metals pig cells

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chicken cells etc that are found in

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vaccines sorry but I believe Dana passed

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away because of different reasons then

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you claimed another message to the

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McCaffrey's told them to harden the F up

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one woman wrote I could walk through a

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ward of babies dying from whooping cough

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or any other infectious disease and it

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would not affect my decision not to

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vaccinate my children instead of Dana in

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our lives we had this madness ms

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McCaffrey said adding she endured two

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miscarriages in the year following

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Dana's death at the height of the

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vilification when someone disrespects

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your loved one it hurts but people

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mocking your child's death it's just not

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human yet the abuse has not swayed the

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McCaffrey's determination to educate the

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public about the importance of

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vaccinations we've had to keep focus on

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what was important and this is making

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the changes so what happened Dana

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doesn't happen to anyone else she said

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their revelations come on the eve of

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historic legislation planned for the

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coming week to allow child care centers

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to

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ban unvaccinated children The Sunday

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Telegraph and The Daily Telegraph have

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been running a no job no play campaign

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to address low immunization rates in the

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state that was a report by Jane Hansen

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and here is some audio from the abc's

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news program late line just a few years

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ago to back up some of the allegations

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made in this story the McCaffrey's live

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just a few kilometers from the

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headquarters of the Australian

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vaccination network they say they've

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been harassed by the avian since their

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daughter died and that the avian has

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made repeated claims that Dana didn't

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die of pertussis our daughter wasn't

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even buried and it began it began the

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day before her funeral it began this

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phone calls to the health department to

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get her medical records contending she

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didn't die of pertussis this email from

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Paul Corbin the director of public

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health at the north coast area Health

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Service backs up Tony mcCaffery's claims

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miss Dorry called me on 12 March seeking

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details of your daughter's illness and

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death miss Dorry contended that I had

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misled the public in attributing your

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daughter's death to pertussis I never

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said any of that all I asked was that's

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what he says well I'm sorry that's not

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true that is not true all I said was how

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was the diagnosis made if it was a quick

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test do you know that it's a real test

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and that the result is real was it

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really whooping cough merrell Dori says

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repeatedly that Dinah McCaffrey

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supposedly died of pertussis it's the

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most offensive statement because I've

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watched over five days my beautiful

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daughter suffered the most agonizing

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death she was just this innocent little

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girl who it was cruel but then to be put

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in a position where I have to prove that

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she died of pertussis that's even

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crueler and she's diminishing the fact

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that pertussis does and can kill and

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it's going to lead someone to make a

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decision about vaccinations we could put

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their baby or their family

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and that's not right okay there is a

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post that you made in reference to the

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skeptics which said isn't it incredible

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how they have made Dana into a martyr

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because she supposedly died from

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whooping cough now could you did I say

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that yeah I don't believe I did let me

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see but ignore all of the children and

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adults who have died after vaccination

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you still sit there I I did say that and

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I still think that again is it jack

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could you imagine reading badly if your

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daughter had died of whooping cough how

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would that make you feel can you imagine

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reading they stop the avian site or the

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daily miss you tonight I'm not asking

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okay that's fine that's fine can you

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imagine reading those comments I can

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imagine and it would probably be hurtful

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and I would be sorry if she felt hurt

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from what I had said but from my point

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of view all children are important all

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deaths are important mcCaffery's have

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made their own complaint to the H Triple

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C about the avian they have continued to

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advocate publicly for vaccination and

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say the avian continues to publish false

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and hurtful comments about them like

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this Facebook post by an AV and

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representative one day I hope the

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parents of this baby tell the whole

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story and were able to see how they've

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been used by a group of ruthless

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scumbags with ulterior motives then

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maybe they'll be able to honor their

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child's life with truth to suggest that

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we're being used by a group of people

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that we're not honoring honoring our

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daughter's life with the truth is just

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have you heard the one about how the

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Illuminati in conjunction with the US

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government are hiding the existence of

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aliens in order to ensure the supply of

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helium is kept low or the CIA the

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militant wing of the Freemasons are

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working with the elders of zion to take

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control of the population of the world

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through fluoridated chemtrails canberra

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skeptics incorporated on behalf of the

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shadow government will be massing an

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array of dark forces for the australian

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skeptics national convention 2013 this

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convention has conspired to coincide

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with the 50th anniversary of the

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assassination of John F Kennedy possibly

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the most famous conspiracy theory of all

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time if you've ever wanted to learn

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about the truth behind the death of JFK

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what makes for a good conspiracy theory

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and why they are so prevalent Canberra

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skeptics invites you to attend that is

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of course should you choose to accept it

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come to national skeptics convention org

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and just remember they will be watching

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you now it's time for dr. Rachel reports

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now bipartisan collie New South Wales

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and then unvaccinated children from

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preschool and childcare centers could

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gain nation wide acceptance

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controversial perhaps but life-saving

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definitely we've seen the science the

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science is compelling vaccination is a

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very good thing The ministers right

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vaccination is a very good thing but

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don't take our word for it let's go to

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the science magazines have saved the

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lives of hundreds of millions of people

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from diseases like diphtheria measles

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and whooping-cough that's a fact when

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vaccines are given death rates go down

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vaccines work in two ways first

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immunization protects the individual

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from diseases and second what enough

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people are immunized it reduces the

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spread of disease in the community that

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means when immunization rates drop more

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people are vulnerable we have

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immunization rates in parts of Sydney

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that are lower than places like Iran and

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Rwanda their current rates are so low

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that epidemics are a matter of when not

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if while 77,000 Australian kids aren't

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up to date with their immunizations only

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a small percentage of parents outright

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refused to have their children

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vaccinated their reasons are varied but

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a big element of vaccine refusal is fear

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of adverse reactions a vaccines of

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medication so they all have potential

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side effects but these are a much

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smaller risk compared to the risk of

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getting the disease those fears can be

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inflamed by misinformation you may have

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heard of the link between vaccines and

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certain illnesses that they overwhelmed

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children's immune systems or even that

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the vaccine is worse than the disease

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rest assured all of those theories have

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been scientifically investigated and not

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one of them is

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it's very clear that vaccination is much

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00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:40,519
safer than not vaccinating dr. Rachel

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Dunlop is a researcher from UTS she's

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also a podcaster blogger and science

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00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:46,190
communicator Rachel it's alarming to

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00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:47,870
hear a statistic like the fact that

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parts of Sydney have lower vaccination

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00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:52,009
rates than Rwanda oh that gets our

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attention but what does that actually

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mean um well it means Charlie that there

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are lots of kids that aren't fully

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vaccinated and that means that they're

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at risk of contracting

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vaccine-preventable diseases like

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measles like whooping cough and also it

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puts other children at risk too

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particularly very young children

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particularly babies who might not have

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had any vaccinations yet so we want to

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make sure that everyone in the community

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is protected so we need lots of people

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to get vaccinated dr. Dunlop the debate

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today is turned on this idea of banning

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00:15:25,689 --> 00:15:23,660
children or not facts noted from going

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to child care or preschool are you a

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00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:27,319
supporter of that do you think that is

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going to drive greater vaccination rates

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00:15:32,829 --> 00:15:31,100
in those parts of Sydney you're talking

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about there are things we need to

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00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:34,459
consider and that is that other children

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00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:36,500
can get harmed if their children are if

348
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:38,000
they haven't got enough kids that are

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vaccinated in a child care and sometimes

350
00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:42,199
there are rules in society that we need

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00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:44,540
to abide by to live as a society we

352
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:46,850
can't drive drunk we can't take peanut

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00:15:51,069 --> 00:15:49,130
butter sandwiches to child care so maybe

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00:15:53,139 --> 00:15:51,079
this will start a conversation where

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parents can discuss it talk about it I'm

356
00:15:56,740 --> 00:15:54,740
glad we're having this discussion I

357
00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:56,750
think it's a healthy discussion we know

358
00:16:00,340 --> 00:15:58,970
as scientists that vaccines are not a

359
00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:00,350
hundred percent safe they're not a

360
00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:02,300
hundred percent effective but we know

361
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,000
the risks that are come from

362
00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:06,800
vaccinations are tiny tiny tiny

363
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,990
miniscule compared to what happens with

364
00:16:12,519 --> 00:16:11,120
the disease so we need to discuss all

365
00:16:14,590 --> 00:16:12,529
these things and then parents make a

366
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:14,600
decision based on the risk ratio and

367
00:16:19,090 --> 00:16:16,490
it's absolutely the safest way to go

368
00:16:20,769 --> 00:16:19,100
with vaccines we deliberately decided

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not to give anti-vaccination groups a

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00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:23,000
time on this program or communicate

371
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their arguments because we think an

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00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:25,670
overwhelming amount of the research

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suggests that their position is invalid

374
00:16:33,730 --> 00:16:30,620
should we be explaining their side of

375
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:33,740
this issue you know I don't think so

376
00:16:38,889 --> 00:16:36,560
because by giving them the same sort of

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00:16:40,509 --> 00:16:38,899
time on television or on radio it

378
00:16:42,730 --> 00:16:40,519
creates this impression in people's

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00:16:45,190 --> 00:16:42,740
minds that experts are divided or

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00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,200
experts haven't decided and

381
00:16:49,570 --> 00:16:47,360
every single case the science is in to

382
00:16:52,390 --> 00:16:49,580
demonstrate that vaccines are effective

383
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:52,400
they're cheap and they are safe so it

384
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:54,470
just confuses parents even more if you

385
00:16:58,930 --> 00:16:56,450
bring in people that have some crazy

386
00:17:00,940 --> 00:16:58,940
ideas actually and I sort of liken it to

387
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:00,950
having a Holocaust denier on a

388
00:17:04,420 --> 00:17:02,720
discussion about world war two well you

389
00:17:06,790 --> 00:17:04,430
wouldn't do that so why bring in someone

390
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:06,800
with crazy ideas Rachel thanks very much

391
00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:10,579
for your time tonight this is really

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00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:12,740
important because I haven't got kids you

393
00:17:16,569 --> 00:17:14,420
go to choke in it it's like there's like

394
00:17:17,949 --> 00:17:16,579
a punch bowl of germs at the child care

395
00:17:19,449 --> 00:17:17,959
wherever and brings pours all their

396
00:17:21,699 --> 00:17:19,459
germs in and everyone get to take them

397
00:17:23,230 --> 00:17:21,709
all home so I made the put you guys

398
00:17:25,360 --> 00:17:23,240
earlier in the day when I raised this

399
00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:25,370
ever on talkback radio you get hammered

400
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:27,440
with people saying vaccinations are

401
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:29,510
dangerous your kids going to get autism

402
00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:31,370
they believe this stuff that's just not

403
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:33,320
the case and not the case and it's

404
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:34,610
interesting when you hear about the idea

405
00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:35,690
that you can't take peanut butter

406
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:38,030
sandwiches do they care but kids can go

407
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:39,200
on vaccinated when you hear that

408
00:17:42,820 --> 00:17:41,210
ultimately you guys without a new south

409
00:17:44,650 --> 00:17:42,830
wales for doing there's a lot of

410
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:44,660
information all over the place on the

411
00:17:47,980 --> 00:17:46,370
internet but if you're after a balanced

412
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:47,990
new to review on vaccinations head to

413
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:49,460
the National Center for immunization

414
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,290
research the links on our website the

415
00:18:02,210 --> 00:17:52,880
information there as well stay with us

416
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:05,070
the skeptic magazine be journal from

417
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:08,230
Australian skeptics subscribe online to

418
00:18:15,030 --> 00:18:10,450
the world's second oldest skeptical

419
00:18:18,330 --> 00:18:15,040
magazine visit w WC optics com au and

420
00:18:21,930 --> 00:18:18,340
click the publication's link you can

421
00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:21,940
also find their over 30 years on back

422
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:25,270
issues free to download the skeptic

423
00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:40,620
welcome to a week in science from our

424
00:18:47,670 --> 00:18:44,500
iOS this week the joy of vitamins 50

425
00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:47,680
shades of bacteria and Varian tales from

426
00:18:59,419 --> 00:18:56,869
this week we have two more reasons to

427
00:19:02,060 --> 00:18:59,429
take our vitamins a study found at

428
00:19:05,239 --> 00:19:02,070
Vitamin C can kill the bacterium that

429
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,249
causes tuberculosis the research implies

430
00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:07,440
that vitamin C could beneficially

431
00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:10,289
supplement TB chemotherapy which is

432
00:19:14,690 --> 00:19:11,849
currently a lengthy and often

433
00:19:16,940 --> 00:19:14,700
unsuccessful treatment meanwhile a study

434
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,950
of elderly volunteers has shown that

435
00:19:21,769 --> 00:19:18,960
taking be grouped vitamin supplements

436
00:19:24,139 --> 00:19:21,779
can reduce brain degeneration associated

437
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:24,149
with Alzheimer's disease and cognitive

438
00:19:30,349 --> 00:19:28,559
decline have you got a dog at home then

439
00:19:32,269 --> 00:19:30,359
you might have a lot more life about

440
00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:32,279
your place than you bargained for a

441
00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:34,950
citizen science project in the US has

442
00:19:40,159 --> 00:19:37,470
shown that households with dogs are home

443
00:19:43,129 --> 00:19:40,169
to more types of bacteria than Douglas

444
00:19:45,409 --> 00:19:43,139
houses dog owners took samples from nine

445
00:19:48,139 --> 00:19:45,419
surfaces in their homes revealing

446
00:19:51,499 --> 00:19:48,149
special dog related bacteria everywhere

447
00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:51,509
from TV screens to pillowcases this

448
00:19:56,690 --> 00:19:54,119
microbial zoom maybe the reason why

449
00:19:58,700 --> 00:19:56,700
pregnant women who own dogs are less

450
00:20:02,169 --> 00:19:58,710
likely to have children with allergies

451
00:20:05,989 --> 00:20:02,179
all up the researchers found over 7,700

452
00:20:08,659 --> 00:20:05,999
types of bacteria in the 40 home studied

453
00:20:12,139 --> 00:20:08,669
you're listening to a week in science

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00:20:15,469 --> 00:20:12,149
from RI oz and now for signs headlines

455
00:20:18,049 --> 00:20:15,479
in 30 seconds barium in the anatole

456
00:20:20,389 --> 00:20:18,059
children's teeth indicates they may have

457
00:20:24,379 --> 00:20:20,399
weaned off breast milk at a very early

458
00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:24,389
age the wobble of star system SS Cygni

459
00:20:30,109 --> 00:20:26,700
indicates it's much closer to us than

460
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:30,119
previously thought a mere 372

461
00:20:35,629 --> 00:20:32,970
light-years captive-bred brushtail rock

462
00:20:38,029 --> 00:20:35,639
wallabies carry antibiotic resistant gut

463
00:20:40,999 --> 00:20:38,039
bacteria and may transmit them if

464
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:41,009
released into the wild and finally bird

465
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:42,960
wings can be built for flight or

466
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:45,210
swimming but cannot be highly effective

467
00:20:52,009 --> 00:20:49,289
at doing both young people who undergo

468
00:20:55,159 --> 00:20:52,019
CT scans are twenty four percent more

469
00:20:57,919 --> 00:20:55,169
likely to develop cancer but the overall

470
00:20:59,839 --> 00:20:57,929
risk is still very low to put this

471
00:21:02,509 --> 00:20:59,849
statistic into perspective we would

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00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:02,519
expect about 39 cancer incidents in

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00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:04,500
10,000 people age

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00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:08,580
between 0 and 19 if they never had a CT

475
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:11,760
scan however if all 10,000 people had

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00:21:18,050 --> 00:21:14,970
one CT scan each we would expect to

477
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:18,060
observe an extra six cancer cases thus

478
00:21:23,060 --> 00:21:20,010
the increased cancer risk for young

479
00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:23,070
people having CT scans is still very low

480
00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:25,140
in comparison to the benefits of using

481
00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:30,870
CTS as a diagnostic tool if you enjoy a

482
00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:32,910
week in science and want to get behind

483
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:36,150
us engaging Australia with science why

484
00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:38,850
not join our iOS as a member memberships

485
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:41,430
are affordable with great benefits your

486
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:43,290
organization could also become a

487
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:46,170
corporate member full details are on our

488
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:48,330
website that's been the highlights of

489
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:50,610
another big week in science for more

490
00:21:57,230 --> 00:21:52,890
information and other science news check

491
00:22:00,110 --> 00:21:57,240
out the are isles website are I aus ore

492
00:22:03,050 --> 00:22:00,120
GA you where you can also sign up for

493
00:22:04,850 --> 00:22:03,060
notifications of future episodes you can

494
00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:04,860
follow a week in science on twitter

495
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:08,700
using the hashtag weekend sigh i'm paul

496
00:22:18,860 --> 00:22:10,770
willis and on behalf of the our oils

497
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:21,740
hi this is Tim Farley you probably know

498
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:24,330
me from what's the harm net a catalog of

499
00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:27,120
the real world harm caused by lack of

500
00:22:32,570 --> 00:22:29,400
critical thinking but that's not my only

501
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:32,580
project i present at skeptic events I

502
00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:35,520
post a daily skeptic history fact on

503
00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:37,740
Twitter and Facebook and I blog about

504
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:40,230
using new techniques on the internet to

505
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:43,410
advance skepticism come over to skip

506
00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:46,890
tools com and check out my latest ideas

507
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:49,980
but first enjoy the rest of the skeptic

508
00:23:03,440 --> 00:22:57,090
zone now it's time for dr. Richie

509
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:03,450
reports with dr. Rachel Dunlop so I'm

510
00:23:07,910 --> 00:23:05,910
here at QED con in Manchester with Andy

511
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,920
Lewis defend the famous Andy Lewis from

512
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:09,600
quack Amida hi Andy hi there how are you

513
00:23:13,790 --> 00:23:12,210
not bad it tired how are you it was

514
00:23:15,470 --> 00:23:13,800
quite a busy night last night wasn't it

515
00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:15,480
with a lots going on and one or two

516
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:16,920
drinks flying around and one or two

517
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:19,290
awards as well by the way so tell us

518
00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:21,690
what you one loves up i won I'm ahkam

519
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:23,550
award for the best blog which I'm quite

520
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:25,410
amazed at actually then some over the

521
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:27,690
moon as a lot of very very excellent

522
00:23:33,890 --> 00:23:29,280
blogs out there so I'm feeling pretty

523
00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:33,900
humbled well actually hung over so you

524
00:23:36,830 --> 00:23:35,400
had some pretty stiff competition as

525
00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:36,840
well didn't you yeah yeah it was haley

526
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:39,420
stevens and jdc and tactful news as well

527
00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:43,500
or nominated so yeah yeah my turn I

528
00:23:47,299 --> 00:23:45,990
guess and in your acceptance speech last

529
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:47,309
night you said you this is normally the

530
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:48,570
time you thank your family but you

531
00:23:52,430 --> 00:23:50,910
didn't this time wise where oh yes I

532
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:52,440
spent like a lot of bloggers I get told

533
00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:55,290
off as spending too much time no my

534
00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:57,000
family are wonderful and I just spoke to

535
00:23:59,720 --> 00:23:58,530
my wife and she's over the moon so I'm

536
00:24:02,570 --> 00:23:59,730
gonna go back home and see my little

537
00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:02,580
babies in a minute okay so just for all

538
00:24:05,570 --> 00:24:03,990
this is it haven't been to cry cama de

539
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:05,580
and I doubt there'd be many of them but

540
00:24:09,169 --> 00:24:07,290
you cover a lot of old med stuff doing

541
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:09,179
yes yes oh yeah I've been doing it about

542
00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:10,650
five or six years now so I can't quite

543
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:13,950
believe and I'm just really speaking

544
00:24:18,980 --> 00:24:17,490
about it the effective alternative

545
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:18,990
medicine on society really I think that

546
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:20,460
that's what's really most fascinating

547
00:24:24,650 --> 00:24:22,980
about it all and how we think about it

548
00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:24,660
and sort of mistakes people make about

549
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:26,460
thinking about it which lead to dreadful

550
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:28,710
regulatory decisions and so on something

551
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:30,450
close to your heart as well yes

552
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:32,970
so you've taken an interest particularly

553
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:35,730
in Steiner schools and recently haven't

554
00:24:39,140 --> 00:24:37,230
you would G walking tell us about yeah

555
00:24:42,860 --> 00:24:39,150
well that's right award of stores

556
00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:42,870
schools and Steiner schools yeah i came

557
00:24:45,260 --> 00:24:44,220
across rudolf steiner through alternate

558
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:45,270
medicine obviously because he had some

559
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:47,970
very very weird ideas about medicine he

560
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:49,740
was a big supporter of his own brand of

561
00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:52,650
homeopathy and very close to me and the

562
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,350
government is setting up a new free

563
00:24:59,480 --> 00:24:56,880
school which they're paying for which is

564
00:25:00,740 --> 00:24:59,490
based on Steiner principles and with two

565
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:00,750
young children I thought I'd better

566
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:02,370
investigate this a bit further and it's

567
00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:05,970
um they present themselves as sort of

568
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:07,830
catering for the whole child and running

569
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:10,320
around in the woods and lots of art and

570
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:12,480
so on but that they're not really at all

571
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:14,220
there's something quite quite sinister

572
00:25:17,540 --> 00:25:15,930
about them I like them to a bit like the

573
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:17,550
the gingerbread house they're very

574
00:25:21,740 --> 00:25:19,770
luring on the outside and appealing to

575
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:21,750
children and nurturing the but inside

576
00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:23,010
there's something quite dark and

577
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:25,020
supernatural going on which is using the

578
00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:27,330
children so yeah and there's lots of

579
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:28,620
alternative medicine going on inside

580
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:30,150
these schools they treat kids with

581
00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:32,370
homeopathy and they don't vaccinate them

582
00:25:36,350 --> 00:25:35,160
and they're if they look after the

583
00:25:38,030 --> 00:25:36,360
doctors in the schools look at this

584
00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:38,040
charge spiritual development and give

585
00:25:42,770 --> 00:25:40,440
them curative you rythme sessions which

586
00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:42,780
is a strange form of dance so it's

587
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:44,430
completely it's quickly completely

588
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:46,650
wonderful but also very very disturbing

589
00:25:50,420 --> 00:25:48,270
as well I think so that's going to be

590
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:50,430
funded publicly did you say yeah there's

591
00:25:54,980 --> 00:25:53,250
about 30 or so private Steiner schools

592
00:25:56,150 --> 00:25:54,990
waddle schools in the UK and they're all

593
00:26:00,650 --> 00:25:56,160
over the world I know you've got them in

594
00:26:02,210 --> 00:26:00,660
Australia yeah and they up till now

595
00:26:04,370 --> 00:26:02,220
they've been sort of like those quaint

596
00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:04,380
old hippie schools you know existed on

597
00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:07,140
the outside of in alternative towns and

598
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:09,390
so on but the government at the moment

599
00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:11,910
is taking schools out of local authority

600
00:26:15,260 --> 00:26:13,800
control and handing over money to pretty

601
00:26:16,970 --> 00:26:15,270
much anyone who says they can set up a

602
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:16,980
school so it's not just a Steiner

603
00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:18,510
schools we've got the Maharishi the

604
00:26:22,670 --> 00:26:20,340
Transcendental Meditation people setting

605
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:22,680
up public schools and there's a number

606
00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:24,450
of other the creationists are trying to

607
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:26,580
get in there as well but I picked on

608
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:28,320
Steiner a because they're closed and be

609
00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:29,730
you know there's an alt med theme in

610
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:31,350
there as well which is common to a lot

611
00:26:34,370 --> 00:26:32,610
of these new schools like the Maharishi

612
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:34,380
they dish out lots of a UH Vedic

613
00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:36,330
medicine to children and so on so it's

614
00:26:38,740 --> 00:26:38,040
called very bizarre and can't quite get

615
00:26:42,010 --> 00:26:38,750
my head around

616
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:42,020
I guess the the whole vaccination thing

617
00:26:46,330 --> 00:26:44,720
worries me and yeah there's been a lot

618
00:26:48,430 --> 00:26:46,340
of Toki this weekend about the outbreak

619
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:48,440
in Swansea Wales at the moment which is

620
00:26:53,470 --> 00:26:51,200
now I think up to 700 cases or something

621
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:53,480
out that the epidemic hasn't even paid

622
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:54,950
yet they expect it will annexed couple

623
00:26:59,860 --> 00:26:57,890
of weeks so creating little pools of

624
00:27:01,840 --> 00:26:59,870
micro environments of unvaccinated k

625
00:27:03,370 --> 00:27:01,850
sounds like a very bad idea yeah

626
00:27:06,570 --> 00:27:03,380
absolutely that the government that

627
00:27:08,620 --> 00:27:06,580
actually recognizes anthroposophical

628
00:27:10,510 --> 00:27:08,630
organizations like Steiner schools that

629
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:10,520
Antipas Uffie is a sort philosophy of

630
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:11,840
Rudolf Steiner and it's not just a

631
00:27:14,770 --> 00:27:13,370
schools there are adult education

632
00:27:17,950 --> 00:27:14,780
colleges and so on but the government

633
00:27:20,980 --> 00:27:17,960
recognizes them was communities of

634
00:27:24,270 --> 00:27:20,990
unvaccinated people and children so they

635
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:24,280
recognize them is a danger and indeed a

636
00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:26,210
lot of the outbreaks have happened over

637
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:27,680
the past few years there's a there's

638
00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:29,930
been a Steiner community nearby and in

639
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:31,720
fact the Steiner schools have an inter

640
00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:34,370
Steiner school Olympics and last year it

641
00:27:37,870 --> 00:27:35,780
was cancelled because so many of the

642
00:27:42,250 --> 00:27:37,880
kids had measles which is just

643
00:27:44,380 --> 00:27:42,260
incredible just give them among our and

644
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,390
then they can go and play the oh no it's

645
00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:46,640
no brainer isn't and they missed a white

646
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:48,440
word mostly about dinosaurs is having

647
00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:50,390
mislead parents that they don't tell

648
00:27:55,150 --> 00:27:52,220
them they're a spiritual school and have

649
00:27:56,530 --> 00:27:55,160
these strange ideas obviously they on

650
00:27:58,300 --> 00:27:56,540
vaccinations you go to their websites

651
00:27:59,890 --> 00:27:58,310
and they play the usual antibac strip

652
00:28:02,110 --> 00:27:59,900
that the trick of saying we don't

653
00:28:04,350 --> 00:28:02,120
encourage or discourage parents we leave

654
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,360
it up to the parents choice which is

655
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:06,320
misdirecting really because they don't

656
00:28:10,270 --> 00:28:07,730
do anything to encourage it and there's

657
00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:10,280
a strong ethos within the school that

658
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:12,830
homeopathy works and vaccination is bad

659
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:14,870
and Rudolf Steiner wrote lots about this

660
00:28:21,130 --> 00:28:17,840
he said he said that um you know these

661
00:28:22,660 --> 00:28:21,140
sort of diseases were good for the

662
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:22,670
children's souls it helped the body to

663
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:24,530
reform during fever which is quite a

664
00:28:31,050 --> 00:28:28,490
homeopathic idea as well and so the

665
00:28:34,150 --> 00:28:31,060
doctors there don't give antibiotics and

666
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:34,160
don't give vaccinations because this is

667
00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:36,080
a spiritual thing for children in fact

668
00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:37,340
Steiner did actually write that if a

669
00:28:42,850 --> 00:28:39,260
child dies because of these diseases

670
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:42,860
that is because of karma so it's because

671
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:44,480
of booty riding this was this before we

672
00:28:48,130 --> 00:28:46,370
knew what medicine was just this a

673
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:48,140
hundred years ago heat while he was he

674
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:50,559
died in 1925 he was an Austrian

675
00:28:56,039 --> 00:28:53,860
and orch Roshan I think something like

676
00:28:59,340 --> 00:28:56,049
that but he was sort of leader of the

677
00:29:02,119 --> 00:28:59,350
German theosophical society the sort of

678
00:29:06,419 --> 00:29:02,129
weird mix of eastern and western occult

679
00:29:08,909 --> 00:29:06,429
clairvoyant dude ours but exam yeah but

680
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:08,919
but he was very much a man of his time

681
00:29:13,730 --> 00:29:11,470
in that part of Germany he his view of

682
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:13,740
spirituality was quite racist in that

683
00:29:18,629 --> 00:29:15,970
karma and evolution karma and

684
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:18,639
reincarnation was driving forces but

685
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:21,210
there was a spiritual hierarchy where

686
00:29:25,950 --> 00:29:23,919
black people were the lowest spiritual

687
00:29:29,220 --> 00:29:25,960
forms and the Aryan race was that at the

688
00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:29,230
moment that the supreme manifestation of

689
00:29:33,539 --> 00:29:31,960
spirituality so and depending what you

690
00:29:37,859 --> 00:29:33,549
do on this life you'll go up and down

691
00:29:39,779 --> 00:29:37,869
that that racist hierarchy if you'd like

692
00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:39,789
so it's quite dark and sinister and of

693
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:41,110
course it was quite alluring I supposed

694
00:29:45,029 --> 00:29:43,090
to Germany at that time with everything

695
00:29:47,999 --> 00:29:45,039
that was going on yes is it considered a

696
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:48,009
religious belief well yeah I mean

697
00:29:52,159 --> 00:29:50,110
getting into definitions of cults and

698
00:29:55,049 --> 00:29:52,169
religions there but it's it's definitely

699
00:29:57,149 --> 00:29:55,059
well it it's definitely a religion in

700
00:29:59,940 --> 00:29:57,159
that it's a belief about the spiritual

701
00:30:02,129 --> 00:29:59,950
world with various supernatural entities

702
00:30:03,810 --> 00:30:02,139
the devil's of Lucifer and arrow man

703
00:30:05,999 --> 00:30:03,820
backing each other with a Christ figure

704
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:06,009
their redeeming in the middle so it's

705
00:30:13,710 --> 00:30:09,129
useless got loosely Christian forms but

706
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:13,720
it also aggregates in eastern ideas of

707
00:30:19,799 --> 00:30:18,100
reincarnation and karma but what steiner

708
00:30:21,629 --> 00:30:19,809
told his teachers to do in schools to

709
00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:21,639
deny to parents it was a religious

710
00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:23,740
organization to hide the spiritual

711
00:30:27,629 --> 00:30:25,720
aspects of him and hide the fact that

712
00:30:31,049 --> 00:30:27,639
the goal of the schools like spiritual

713
00:30:33,539 --> 00:30:31,059
midwifery actually helping children

714
00:30:35,549 --> 00:30:33,549
Souls incarnate into their bodies as

715
00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:35,559
they go through school so that's what

716
00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:38,049
the teachers are actually doing and they

717
00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:39,340
believe that reading and writing can

718
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:41,350
interfere with that incarnation process

719
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:43,210
for any children so they don't that's

720
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:44,799
why they don't teach children to read

721
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:47,440
and write because yeah I'm not familiar

722
00:30:52,590 --> 00:30:50,710
we style as that name but where I know

723
00:30:54,269 --> 00:30:52,600
Waldorf schools and I was similar and

724
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:54,279
they were kids would play in the dirt

725
00:30:58,049 --> 00:30:55,840
instead of learning mathematics is yes

726
00:31:01,080 --> 00:30:58,059
sir how do they acquire skills that's a

727
00:31:02,009 --> 00:31:01,090
very good question yeah sure but it

728
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:02,019
depends which country and whether

729
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:02,930
they're called water

730
00:31:05,650 --> 00:31:04,130
steiner but they're the same thing

731
00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:05,660
they're anthroposophical schools because

732
00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:08,420
Steiner setup is first score the

733
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:10,940
waldorf-astoria cigarette factory I

734
00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:16,610
believe so yeah so yeah but so it's a

735
00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:19,070
good question I mean that people put to

736
00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:21,500
me yes but I i went to a wardle school

737
00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:23,240
and in fact I was out with dinner with

738
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:25,630
the Cape Town skeptics in the autumn

739
00:31:30,220 --> 00:31:27,530
telling them that I was doing talking

740
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:30,230
about this and and talking about Steiner

741
00:31:34,330 --> 00:31:32,450
schools and one of the main guys that

742
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:34,340
Cape Town skeptics said but what do you

743
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:35,810
mean bordel schools I said all those

744
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:38,090
same thing we said I went to a waddle

745
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:41,480
school I have no idea but so there are

746
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:44,510
people as no nerve no no you had no idea

747
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:46,850
of the underlying philosophy and because

748
00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:48,530
it's well hidden from parents and the

749
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:51,590
children and some children will thrive

750
00:31:55,090 --> 00:31:53,390
there you know whether that's in spite

751
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:55,100
of all because of the type of teaching

752
00:31:58,780 --> 00:31:56,650
and they're undoubtedly will be

753
00:32:01,900 --> 00:31:58,790
conscientious and good teachers within

754
00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:01,910
that environment as well but it there

755
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:04,040
there are lots of people who don't

756
00:32:08,650 --> 00:32:06,650
thrive and especially forgot any

757
00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:08,660
learning difficulties they they have all

758
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:11,300
these very weird ideas about how you

759
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:12,170
know learning difficult is a

760
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:13,910
manifestation of karma and so on you

761
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:17,360
have to spiritually kill them so it'll

762
00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:19,130
be responsible because your parents are

763
00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:20,360
enrolling their children they're not

764
00:32:25,660 --> 00:32:23,480
being aware of this yeah this philosophy

765
00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:25,670
yeah how are they able to prevent their

766
00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:28,790
kids from falling behind all well yeah I

767
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:30,080
mean there are some parents who don't

768
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:31,250
care about that they want their kids

769
00:32:35,290 --> 00:32:33,050
running around in the woods and painting

770
00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:35,300
so there are other there are the parents

771
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:37,790
who you know they don't like the exams

772
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:39,200
they advertise themselves as being anti

773
00:32:43,210 --> 00:32:41,030
exam and all that treadmill of academia

774
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:43,220
which you some people might think it's a

775
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:45,260
great idea but there are other parents

776
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:47,210
who spot their children are falling

777
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:49,490
behind their peers you know not going to

778
00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:52,310
be and so start wondering what the

779
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:53,750
school is they've sent into and then

780
00:32:57,730 --> 00:32:55,370
discover and that's the most shocking

781
00:32:59,860 --> 00:32:57,740
thing when they find out and so you'll

782
00:33:01,180 --> 00:32:59,870
see steines of either parents on online

783
00:33:03,790 --> 00:33:01,190
and so on and talking about this and

784
00:33:05,650 --> 00:33:03,800
campaigning against it and having very

785
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:05,660
little effect on government policy and

786
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:08,480
so on so but I think in the UK that that

787
00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:10,880
will come to a head because because it's

788
00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:14,030
state-funded all this idea of choice for

789
00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:14,790
parents

790
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:18,520
little choice because it's the closest

791
00:33:22,049 --> 00:33:19,690
school and there's no other schools

792
00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:22,059
available and when they find out what's

793
00:33:24,930 --> 00:33:23,260
being funded thing I think in two or

794
00:33:26,970 --> 00:33:24,940
three years time it's going to be

795
00:33:29,610 --> 00:33:26,980
documentaries whatever I think it'd be

796
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:29,620
pretty explosive really mmm so have you

797
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:31,330
given that you've been running the blog

798
00:33:35,130 --> 00:33:32,770
for five or six years and you cover some

799
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,140
stuff that I guess sacred cows to some

800
00:33:39,660 --> 00:33:37,360
people you must get some hate mail yeah

801
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:39,670
lots of wonderful every day I'm sure you

802
00:33:44,190 --> 00:33:42,010
do as well oh yeah lots of it threats

803
00:33:47,370 --> 00:33:44,200
and things and stalkers and harasses

804
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:47,380
yeah yeah funny isn't it because the old

805
00:33:51,419 --> 00:33:49,690
med community put pictures themselves as

806
00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:51,429
warm and fuzzy and unicorn and rainbow

807
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:53,950
Jepsen yeah but it's not look like that

808
00:33:59,610 --> 00:33:57,130
in the front line is it and there's lots

809
00:34:03,720 --> 00:33:59,620
people feel sorry for me as well which I

810
00:34:05,310 --> 00:34:03,730
get most ack who much me you know you

811
00:34:07,230 --> 00:34:05,320
know you really ought to embrace these

812
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:07,240
alternative medicines and one day you'll

813
00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:08,530
need them and so this but like a

814
00:34:12,930 --> 00:34:11,200
religion really yeah I don't I've got a

815
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:12,940
god-shaped hole in my heart or whatever

816
00:34:16,859 --> 00:34:15,250
so you were telling me I'm on the panel

817
00:34:19,649 --> 00:34:16,869
we did yesterday that you actually have

818
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:19,659
some education in quantum and you get

819
00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:21,730
lectured by people quite know about the

820
00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:23,950
alternative meaning of quality I my PhD

821
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:25,720
was in nuclear physics binder I don't

822
00:34:29,129 --> 00:34:27,970
really let that on because you know lots

823
00:34:30,990 --> 00:34:29,139
of people come in and tell me that

824
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:31,000
quantum physics can explain that and

825
00:34:34,050 --> 00:34:32,350
I've let a few people just walk into

826
00:34:35,869 --> 00:34:34,060
that some academics in your tournament

827
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:35,879
and who should have known better and

828
00:34:40,530 --> 00:34:39,040
yeah I mean it's hard I don't really

829
00:34:41,970 --> 00:34:40,540
understand it and you but you can you

830
00:34:44,099 --> 00:34:41,980
can see these by that guys have got

831
00:34:46,409 --> 00:34:44,109
absolutely no idea what they're talking

832
00:34:49,830 --> 00:34:46,419
about it's just part of the incredible

833
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:49,840
human capability to attach stories to

834
00:34:54,060 --> 00:34:51,310
your beliefs and so on isn't it quite

835
00:34:55,649 --> 00:34:54,070
amazing mm-hmm well thanks for talking

836
00:34:58,500 --> 00:34:55,659
to us earlier congrats on the award

837
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:58,510
again thank you last night okay I love a

838
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:59,920
good luck with all your stuff in

839
00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:00,880
Australia sounds like you're doing

840
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:02,680
fantastic stuff with them oh yeah yeah

841
00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:04,330
things we go progress good all right

842
00:35:17,530 --> 00:35:16,090
hey guys this is jay from the skeptics

843
00:35:20,140 --> 00:35:17,540
guide to the universe whoa whoa whoa

844
00:35:21,550 --> 00:35:20,150
hold on whoa everybody knows I'm the

845
00:35:23,470 --> 00:35:21,560
only reason to listen to the Freak Show

846
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:23,480
right I mean it was up to me the show

847
00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:29,330
would start with this yeah boy well

848
00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:31,790
Rebecca would hate that probably but I

849
00:35:34,930 --> 00:35:33,620
mean I'd rock that listen to our show

850
00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:34,940
and you can learn about cool stuff like

851
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:36,740
a technological singularity which is

852
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:38,480
someday when technology progresses so

853
00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:40,010
fast that it would make the Industrial

854
00:35:44,410 --> 00:35:41,390
Revolution look like a kid science

855
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:44,420
project anyway come check us out at WWDC

856
00:36:00,279 --> 00:35:58,359
what's the to you a and network stations

857
00:36:03,219 --> 00:36:00,289
nice to have you company on this Friday

858
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:03,229
nights it's cold outside it's dark many

859
00:36:12,489 --> 00:36:04,910
people would say it might even be a

860
00:36:15,430 --> 00:36:12,499
little bit spooky you unlock this door

861
00:36:18,299 --> 00:36:15,440
with the key of imagination beyond it is

862
00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:18,309
another dimension a dimension of sound a

863
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:22,660
dimension of sight a dimension of mind

864
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:24,890
you're moving into a land of both shadow

865
00:36:31,859 --> 00:36:28,160
and substance of things and ideas you've

866
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:31,869
just crossed over into the twilight zone

867
00:36:37,359 --> 00:36:34,640
so what do you think of all that ghosts

868
00:36:39,579 --> 00:36:37,369
spoon bending mind tricks the paranormal

869
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:39,589
the other side clairvoyance do you

870
00:36:46,779 --> 00:36:41,920
believe in all that or are you a skeptic

871
00:36:48,789 --> 00:36:46,789
so exactly what are the skeptics and how

872
00:36:50,769 --> 00:36:48,799
long have they been around and I how do

873
00:36:53,380 --> 00:36:50,779
you become a skeptic and what sort of

874
00:36:56,199 --> 00:36:53,390
people make up their membership well

875
00:36:58,900 --> 00:36:56,209
Richard Saunders is the new south wales

876
00:37:01,499 --> 00:36:58,910
president of the Australian skeptics

877
00:37:04,749 --> 00:37:01,509
they are going to be in Canberra on

878
00:37:09,099 --> 00:37:04,759
Saturday June the first in the lecture

879
00:37:12,279 --> 00:37:09,109
theatre at the CSIRO discovery center in

880
00:37:13,779 --> 00:37:12,289
the a.c.t it's free admission they're

881
00:37:17,249 --> 00:37:13,789
going to be looking at I suppose

882
00:37:19,839 --> 00:37:17,259
paranormal and what it's all about and

883
00:37:22,620 --> 00:37:19,849
they've got a differing view on all of

884
00:37:25,779 --> 00:37:22,630
this they've also got a

885
00:37:27,999 --> 00:37:25,789
one-hundred-thousand-dollar prize it all

886
00:37:29,170 --> 00:37:28,009
sounds fascinating overtaken Richard

887
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:29,180
Saunders is the new south wales

888
00:37:32,319 --> 00:37:31,130
president of the Australian skeptics and

889
00:37:33,789 --> 00:37:32,329
I'm happy to say that he joins us on the

890
00:37:38,019 --> 00:37:33,799
line how are you I'm feeling

891
00:37:39,609 --> 00:37:38,029
particularly spooky tonight on I got to

892
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,619
tell you I didn't even know we had an

893
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:41,359
organization call the Australian

894
00:37:45,489 --> 00:37:43,249
skeptics yeah well we've been around

895
00:37:47,410 --> 00:37:45,499
since about nineteen eighty one we were

896
00:37:51,009 --> 00:37:47,420
kicked off by Dick Smith Phillip Adams

897
00:37:54,309 --> 00:37:51,019
and the magician from America James

898
00:37:57,219 --> 00:37:54,319
Randi basically skepticism modern

899
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,229
skepticism came about because of all the

900
00:38:01,809 --> 00:37:59,359
funny claims that we heard in the 1970s

901
00:38:04,420 --> 00:38:01,819
like people spoon benders and UFOs and

902
00:38:07,630 --> 00:38:04,430
Bigfoots and all the rest of it

903
00:38:10,420 --> 00:38:07,640
and when some magicians especially saw

904
00:38:12,220 --> 00:38:10,430
that what they were seeing we're really

905
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:12,230
just magic tricks from the book they got

906
00:38:15,730 --> 00:38:13,550
a little bit upset about that because

907
00:38:18,430 --> 00:38:15,740
you're not supposed to you know wreck

908
00:38:21,580 --> 00:38:18,440
the magical art like that and so that's

909
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:21,590
really how modern skepticism was born is

910
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:24,650
it all hocus pocus is it all magic is it

911
00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:27,290
depends if somebody's doing a trick that

912
00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:29,360
looks like a trick then yes it's most

913
00:38:33,070 --> 00:38:30,920
probably a trick and so if it walks like

914
00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:33,080
a duck and quacks like a duck yeah more

915
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:35,270
or less but the one thing the very

916
00:38:39,310 --> 00:38:36,800
important thing that skeptics must

917
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:39,320
always do and always remember is that we

918
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:42,110
must keep an open mind that is we'll go

919
00:38:46,540 --> 00:38:44,000
along and investigate a strange claim

920
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:46,550
and and see what the truth is now if

921
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:48,890
that strange claim turns out that it's

922
00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:50,930
really is a strange claim then we have

923
00:38:53,830 --> 00:38:52,460
to stand up and say well it's it's

924
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:53,840
pretty spooky and we don't know what's

925
00:38:58,510 --> 00:38:56,480
going on you require proof don't you

926
00:38:59,860 --> 00:38:58,520
yeah well it's like anybody if you're

927
00:39:02,170 --> 00:38:59,870
going to buy a used car you know you

928
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:02,180
everybody's skeptical in that respect

929
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:03,830
I'll look for good evidence and they'll

930
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:05,680
kick the tires now do their research

931
00:39:11,110 --> 00:39:08,510
that's what we do with the with all the

932
00:39:13,780 --> 00:39:11,120
claims that we come across what do you

933
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:13,790
classify as proof how much proof do you

934
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,150
need really depends on the claim if

935
00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:19,280
somebody claims that they can for

936
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:22,820
example use divining rods to find hidden

937
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:25,010
underground water then we could put that

938
00:39:29,350 --> 00:39:27,050
to a very very simple test and see if

939
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:29,360
they can actually do it if they can do

940
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:31,760
it not only will we say yep that's you

941
00:39:35,650 --> 00:39:32,960
know that's pretty good proof for us

942
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:35,660
then yeah they get a lot of money okay a

943
00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:37,970
serious question where do you guys sit

944
00:39:43,540 --> 00:39:40,550
about the claims made by a certain

945
00:39:47,230 --> 00:39:43,550
gentleman 2000 years ago we generally

946
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:47,240
unless they can be tested leave that to

947
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:49,730
everybody's personal opinion and belief

948
00:39:54,370 --> 00:39:51,800
that's fine I mean we live in a free

949
00:39:56,020 --> 00:39:54,380
society there are lots of people who

950
00:39:57,550 --> 00:39:56,030
believe in lots of different gods and

951
00:39:59,950 --> 00:39:57,560
religious backgrounds and all sorts of

952
00:40:01,750 --> 00:39:59,960
things do that that's you know we will

953
00:40:04,330 --> 00:40:01,760
protect that that's part of living in a

954
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:04,340
free society but if they say oh and by

955
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:07,610
the way uh this statue is weeping blood

956
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:09,770
or this person can now walk because

957
00:40:12,970 --> 00:40:11,450
somebody healed them through a miracle

958
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:12,980
well that's something we can really

959
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:17,210
investigate okay so why did you guys get

960
00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:18,050
together in the

961
00:40:22,030 --> 00:40:21,110
place we were a little bit angry that

962
00:40:24,940 --> 00:40:22,040
there was a lot of misinformation out

963
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:24,950
there partly yeah and as I said before

964
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:26,690
partly because there were people out

965
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:29,650
there really raining on the parade of

966
00:40:34,690 --> 00:40:32,090
good decent honest hard-working

967
00:40:37,150 --> 00:40:34,700
magicians right now when you go to see a

968
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:37,160
magic gap it's you know that it's a

969
00:40:40,450 --> 00:40:38,720
trick and the magician knows it's a

970
00:40:42,190 --> 00:40:40,460
trick and you all know it's a trick but

971
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:42,200
the idea is to be fooled and have a

972
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:44,450
great time and be really entertained but

973
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:46,970
what some people do to this day is they

974
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:50,570
use those same magic tricks um and pull

975
00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:52,250
the wool over people's eyes and pretend

976
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:54,320
that they're actually really divine or

977
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:57,200
miracles or something okay so if there's

978
00:41:00,220 --> 00:40:58,400
people listening to you and I talked

979
00:41:01,990 --> 00:41:00,230
about all this now I'm just wondering

980
00:41:03,850 --> 00:41:02,000
how many people out there are skeptics

981
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:03,860
but don't realize it what do you

982
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:05,690
classify as how do you classify yourself

983
00:41:10,110 --> 00:41:07,760
as a skeptic I think a good good

984
00:41:12,610 --> 00:41:10,120
definition of a skeptic is somebody who

985
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:12,620
makes up their mind based on the best

986
00:41:16,990 --> 00:41:14,510
available evidence which is basically

987
00:41:19,630 --> 00:41:17,000
science that their science works it's

988
00:41:22,270 --> 00:41:19,640
not afraid to have that worldview

989
00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:22,280
challenged but really says okay but you

990
00:41:27,250 --> 00:41:24,230
must really can't come up with the goods

991
00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:27,260
where's the really good evidence stories

992
00:41:31,690 --> 00:41:29,720
aren't evidence testimonials aren't

993
00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:31,700
evidence we need a bit more we're better

994
00:41:35,290 --> 00:41:33,590
than that what about people and I've had

995
00:41:36,970 --> 00:41:35,300
them bring the radio station Richard I

996
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:36,980
think we spoke about this many many

997
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:40,130
weeks ago in regards to ghosts yeah and

998
00:41:44,890 --> 00:41:42,560
how many people were very genuine about

999
00:41:49,300 --> 00:41:44,900
seeing ghosts and seeing loved ones

1000
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:49,310
after they had passed away is I mean and

1001
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:51,290
look you know though they were the full

1002
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:53,690
bottle there was no full moon and they

1003
00:41:59,710 --> 00:41:56,510
were quite legitimate is is that what

1004
00:42:02,110 --> 00:41:59,720
the mind playing tricks with you what is

1005
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:02,120
ordered able to believe that much of

1006
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:04,370
that person was still around how do you

1007
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:08,690
logically I suppose explain what they

1008
00:42:14,290 --> 00:42:11,810
saw well that's the really big thing the

1009
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:14,300
thing we ask in in skepticism first of

1010
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:17,330
up is not how something happened is if

1011
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:19,040
something happened right now that

1012
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:20,810
getting back to what I said people

1013
00:42:24,610 --> 00:42:22,430
saying something happened or writing it

1014
00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:24,620
down and saying I swear it happened it's

1015
00:42:28,510 --> 00:42:26,420
it there's not much we can do about that

1016
00:42:30,220 --> 00:42:28,520
it might have happened well maybe they

1017
00:42:31,830 --> 00:42:30,230
saw they did their the dead

1018
00:42:33,390 --> 00:42:31,840
great-grandfather maybe they

1019
00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:33,400
did you know who we to say they didn't

1020
00:42:38,310 --> 00:42:36,070
yeah but just saying so unfortunately

1021
00:42:41,220 --> 00:42:38,320
it's just not really convincing evidence

1022
00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:41,230
but it can be many things from from a

1023
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:44,230
deep and desperate need for something to

1024
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:46,930
be true or a Miss mistake those you know

1025
00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:48,850
honestly mistaken sometimes there's a

1026
00:42:52,770 --> 00:42:50,350
waking dream there's lots of things what

1027
00:42:54,060 --> 00:42:52,780
are you doing in camera on Saturday the

1028
00:42:56,250 --> 00:42:54,070
first because this program is being

1029
00:42:57,540 --> 00:42:56,260
broadcasted to CC in Canberra what have

1030
00:42:59,070 --> 00:42:57,550
you got on offer for people to live in

1031
00:43:00,270 --> 00:42:59,080
Canberra well I'm going to be giving a

1032
00:43:02,490 --> 00:43:00,280
talk about all sorts of interesting

1033
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:02,500
investigations including ghosts right

1034
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:04,690
the investigations I've been involved

1035
00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:06,550
with and having a look having a look at

1036
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:08,200
how some people appear to talk to the

1037
00:43:12,510 --> 00:43:10,000
dead i'll be giving spoon bending

1038
00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:12,520
lessons so if anybody will ever wanted

1039
00:43:17,580 --> 00:43:15,160
to know how to bend a spoon better than

1040
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:17,590
a certain moon bender from the 70s i'll

1041
00:43:22,140 --> 00:43:19,290
certainly show them how to do that right

1042
00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:22,150
asking answering questions people can

1043
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:23,560
ask me questions about all sorts of

1044
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:25,810
things and hopefully just having a good

1045
00:43:31,350 --> 00:43:29,170
time and I'm really really saying that

1046
00:43:34,350 --> 00:43:31,360
skepticism is great it's fun it's

1047
00:43:36,090 --> 00:43:34,360
interesting and you get to I get to go

1048
00:43:37,710 --> 00:43:36,100
around the world just this year I've

1049
00:43:39,180 --> 00:43:37,720
been to Norway I've been to Ireland I've

1050
00:43:42,210 --> 00:43:39,190
been to the Czech Republic I've been to

1051
00:43:44,730 --> 00:43:42,220
America and the UK giving talks and

1052
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:44,740
having a great time skepticism is a lot

1053
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:47,050
of fun where are where are the the

1054
00:43:50,580 --> 00:43:48,850
greatest concentration of skeptics

1055
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:50,590
around the world that's a really good

1056
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:53,530
question i got i don't know well and

1057
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:55,090
also i suppose the other question to ask

1058
00:44:00,210 --> 00:43:58,090
you is where in the world do you find at

1059
00:44:03,570 --> 00:44:00,220
the hardest to get your movement up and

1060
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:03,580
running well I it's pretty difficult in

1061
00:44:09,630 --> 00:44:06,610
places like I know the Indian skeptic

1062
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:09,640
strong pretty hard time because they're

1063
00:44:14,910 --> 00:44:11,710
battling a lot of very old beliefs

1064
00:44:17,310 --> 00:44:14,920
artists and people get angry people will

1065
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:17,320
turn on you if you're if you dare

1066
00:44:20,220 --> 00:44:18,730
question your beliefs and you know in

1067
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:20,230
some countries you know you get into big

1068
00:44:25,260 --> 00:44:22,570
trouble if you question beliefs but even

1069
00:44:27,630 --> 00:44:25,270
here if I say I try to be calm and

1070
00:44:30,740 --> 00:44:27,640
polite and straightforward people get

1071
00:44:33,420 --> 00:44:30,750
very upset if you say you're a skeptic

1072
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:33,430
but I think you're really in some of the

1073
00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:36,640
countries in Africa that there's they

1074
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:37,990
have a hard time because they've been

1075
00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:40,960
attacked yeah skeptics get attacked

1076
00:44:44,820 --> 00:44:43,240
because in some parts of Africa they

1077
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:44,830
still believe in witches and things like

1078
00:44:47,099 --> 00:44:45,730
that so

1079
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:47,109
there's a lot of superstition out that

1080
00:44:49,859 --> 00:44:48,400
the battle would it be fair to say that

1081
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:49,869
if you're a skeptic you're also an

1082
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:52,960
atheist oh no absolutely not we have

1083
00:44:56,820 --> 00:44:54,670
people in there Estonian skeptics from

1084
00:44:58,260 --> 00:44:56,830
all walks of life all religions we don't

1085
00:44:59,880 --> 00:44:58,270
worry about that it's that personal

1086
00:45:02,190 --> 00:44:59,890
belief if they want to do the Earth's

1087
00:45:05,340 --> 00:45:02,200
fine if they want to investigate a ghost

1088
00:45:07,740 --> 00:45:05,350
or spoon bending your UFOs or ESP or the

1089
00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:07,750
claims of old medicine they can have

1090
00:45:12,060 --> 00:45:09,190
whatever religion they like this is a

1091
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:12,070
sort of two different topics tell me

1092
00:45:19,830 --> 00:45:14,890
you've had an offer on the table since

1093
00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:19,840
1980 yeah explain all you have to do to

1094
00:45:24,060 --> 00:45:22,510
win a truckload of money a hundred

1095
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:24,070
thousand dollars in this country and a

1096
00:45:28,650 --> 00:45:26,530
million dollars in the US history is

1097
00:45:31,530 --> 00:45:28,660
very very simple you have to show us in

1098
00:45:34,290 --> 00:45:31,540
an agreed test that you can do anything

1099
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:34,300
supernatural or paranormal and all we

1100
00:45:39,630 --> 00:45:37,210
need to know all we ask of anybody is

1101
00:45:42,570 --> 00:45:39,640
saying what is your claim clearly what

1102
00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:42,580
is your claim 12 under what conditions

1103
00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:44,230
can you do your claims that every second

1104
00:45:47,550 --> 00:45:45,609
Tuesday's isn't comfortable room

1105
00:45:49,410 --> 00:45:47,560
whatever you like and three what success

1106
00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:49,420
rate do you normally have once we know

1107
00:45:53,970 --> 00:45:51,220
that we can get together with whoever it

1108
00:45:57,330 --> 00:45:53,980
is work out a simple test that they will

1109
00:46:00,120 --> 00:45:57,340
pass if they have the abilities after 30

1110
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:00,130
years no one has passed how many have

1111
00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:01,450
come forward and said I'll give it a go

1112
00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:03,430
good question over the over the years

1113
00:46:07,740 --> 00:46:05,470
quite a lot in this country mostly water

1114
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:07,750
diviners but certainly around the world

1115
00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:09,250
and other organizations have lots of

1116
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,840
money on offer to there'd be hundreds

1117
00:46:15,450 --> 00:46:13,359
over the years water diviners they were

1118
00:46:17,849 --> 00:46:15,460
looking for water with what two bits of

1119
00:46:19,410 --> 00:46:17,859
sticks sticks or wires or pendulums or

1120
00:46:22,290 --> 00:46:19,420
their bare hands and all sorts of things

1121
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:22,300
are sadly with all the years we've been

1122
00:46:25,830 --> 00:46:24,310
testing no one has ever shown us that

1123
00:46:28,109 --> 00:46:25,840
they can actually find it better than

1124
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,119
random chance and rolling a diet tea

1125
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:30,880
quietly to yourself in the course a TI

1126
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:33,130
before I baguettes it well I'll be

1127
00:46:38,370 --> 00:46:35,170
really blunt with you if anybody comes

1128
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:38,380
along and shows us a paranormal power

1129
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:41,650
like water divining with the dead well

1130
00:46:45,930 --> 00:46:43,510
then I could probably turn around and

1131
00:46:47,940 --> 00:46:45,940
come go to a media outlet and have say

1132
00:46:49,980 --> 00:46:47,950
well i found this person i want a

1133
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:49,990
million dollars for the story you see

1134
00:46:54,270 --> 00:46:52,240
what I mean it would be great for me to

1135
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:54,280
find somebody and but more importantly

1136
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:56,650
more importantly it would open up an

1137
00:47:01,710 --> 00:46:59,200
incredible new realm of sign

1138
00:47:04,079 --> 00:47:01,720
science first to study how would you

1139
00:47:05,930 --> 00:47:04,089
test somebody that claims that they can

1140
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:05,940
speak to people that have passed away

1141
00:47:11,630 --> 00:47:08,320
good question again it depends on

1142
00:47:14,220 --> 00:47:11,640
exactly what they say they can do rice

1143
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:14,230
we could certainly arrange for them to

1144
00:47:18,359 --> 00:47:15,790
meet somebody maybe they've never met

1145
00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:18,369
before we'd know the backstory of their

1146
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:21,070
they're dead yes example and yes we

1147
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:23,440
could do a checklist what are the things

1148
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:25,089
people don't do when they go have to

1149
00:47:28,740 --> 00:47:27,010
have a psychic reading we find as they

1150
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:28,750
usually don't ask questions they usually

1151
00:47:33,359 --> 00:47:31,450
sit there and let the the the reader ask

1152
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:33,369
all the questions hello dearie who's

1153
00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:34,930
there's a father figure who's passed

1154
00:47:39,390 --> 00:47:37,390
over I'm getting the initial M around me

1155
00:47:40,829 --> 00:47:39,400
now what this reader is doing is is

1156
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,839
they're really asking lots of questions

1157
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:42,640
of the sitter and they're very good at

1158
00:47:48,510 --> 00:47:46,089
ruling body language yes but it's more

1159
00:47:50,550 --> 00:47:48,520
it's more to do in the mind of the

1160
00:47:53,010 --> 00:47:50,560
person who's go long gone along to the

1161
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:53,020
psychic to be read they put all the

1162
00:47:58,290 --> 00:47:55,510
connections together to make it work and

1163
00:48:00,420 --> 00:47:58,300
make it happen for them so do you ask

1164
00:48:03,420 --> 00:48:00,430
yourselves the big questions I mean

1165
00:48:06,839 --> 00:48:03,430
things like is our is our life already

1166
00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:06,849
planned out Forks I mean I'm just trying

1167
00:48:11,579 --> 00:48:09,670
to work out it is that belief system

1168
00:48:15,450 --> 00:48:11,589
isn't it I think I'd rather I'd rather

1169
00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:15,460
spend my time hunting UFOs I'll leave

1170
00:48:19,470 --> 00:48:17,200
that the Philosopher's I hope my life's

1171
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:19,480
not all really old Destin and planned

1172
00:48:25,319 --> 00:48:23,410
out for me I mean I how do we find out

1173
00:48:28,319 --> 00:48:25,329
more about your lecture Saturday first

1174
00:48:30,839 --> 00:48:28,329
of June 130 da Street it's free it's

1175
00:48:33,329 --> 00:48:30,849
free absolutely the best the easiest way

1176
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:33,339
you have to simply go to Canberra

1177
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:36,970
skeptics org dot a you yes all the

1178
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:38,800
informations then we spell skeptics with

1179
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:40,450
a k because oh it's a long story but

1180
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:45,130
it's gonna ask you that well the truth

1181
00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:47,530
is when the Australian skeptic started

1182
00:48:51,809 --> 00:48:50,230
we nicked the letterhead or the masthead

1183
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:51,819
from the American magazine and they

1184
00:48:57,150 --> 00:48:53,650
spelled it with a k I mean I don't know

1185
00:48:58,890 --> 00:48:57,160
those damn Americans listen Grampa

1186
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:58,900
skeptics dot org are you all the

1187
00:49:02,849 --> 00:49:00,880
information there and as i say i'll be

1188
00:49:04,530 --> 00:49:02,859
happy to do spoon bending listen good on

1189
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:04,540
your rigid great to talk to you thank

1190
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:06,310
you thank you so much bye bye Richard

1191
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:08,410
Saunders joining us on the line he is

1192
00:49:12,410 --> 00:49:11,170
the the president of the New South Wales

1193
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:12,420
president of the

1194
00:49:15,860 --> 00:49:14,640
Australian skeptics Association so you

1195
00:49:18,170 --> 00:49:15,870
can jump on their website Canberra

1196
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:18,180
skeptics dot org dot a you are you a

1197
00:49:25,490 --> 00:49:21,450
skeptic or do you believe and I just

1198
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:25,500
wonder what experiences have you had or

1199
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:27,930
do you think it's just I a lot of

1200
00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:30,450
hocus-pocus it is very true what richard

1201
00:49:34,460 --> 00:49:32,910
has just said that if you ever go to a

1202
00:49:37,340 --> 00:49:34,470
clairvoyant and look on I have to admit

1203
00:49:40,310 --> 00:49:37,350
I've been out of curiosity sake they do

1204
00:49:42,410 --> 00:49:40,320
do all the talking and you don't ask

1205
00:49:43,850 --> 00:49:42,420
questions and I think sometimes maybe

1206
00:49:46,130 --> 00:49:43,860
you don't ask questions because you

1207
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:46,140
don't want to let on anything in case

1208
00:49:51,110 --> 00:49:48,330
because in the back of your mind I'm

1209
00:49:54,860 --> 00:49:51,120
sure you think that it is possibly hocus

1210
00:49:57,350 --> 00:49:54,870
pocus so you sit there like with a poker

1211
00:49:58,970 --> 00:49:57,360
face because you don't want to let

1212
00:50:01,520 --> 00:49:58,980
anything on anyway what are your

1213
00:50:14,830 --> 00:50:01,530
thoughts are your skeptic or do you

1214
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:17,560
I'm Eugenie Scott executive director of

1215
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:18,890
the National Center for Science

1216
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:21,890
Education in Oakland California we

1217
00:50:25,510 --> 00:50:23,690
defend and support the teaching of

1218
00:50:27,370 --> 00:50:25,520
evolution and climate change when it

1219
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:27,380
comes under attack for religious and

1220
00:50:31,930 --> 00:50:29,510
political reasons we help teachers

1221
00:50:34,570 --> 00:50:31,940
parents school boards and other citizens

1222
00:50:38,110 --> 00:50:34,580
defend good science in the schools come

1223
00:50:40,690 --> 00:50:38,120
visit us at NCC calm and on YouTube and

1224
00:50:42,490 --> 00:50:40,700
Facebook and let us know if science

1225
00:50:57,839 --> 00:50:42,500
comes under attack in your community

1226
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:00,250
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1227
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:02,690
zone and I hope you're as angry as I am

1228
00:51:08,140 --> 00:51:06,890
about the insane and sick behavior of

1229
00:51:10,750 --> 00:51:08,150
those people at the Australian

1230
00:51:13,150 --> 00:51:10,760
anti-vaccination network and well done

1231
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:13,160
dr. he4 your continuing campaigning

1232
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:15,770
against these people and good to see you

1233
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:18,290
and hear you on the project and thank

1234
00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:19,730
you to all those people who keep writing

1235
00:51:24,819 --> 00:51:22,310
in to say how much you enjoyed solar

1236
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:24,829
flare it's really nice in fact I just

1237
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:26,210
noticed a spike in the number of

1238
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:27,710
downloads so that's really good to see

1239
00:51:32,349 --> 00:51:30,650
solar flare a lot of fun we even poked

1240
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:32,359
fun at the anti-vaxxers in at big time

1241
00:51:38,290 --> 00:51:34,970
if you haven't heard solar flare just go

1242
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:38,300
to ww skeptic zone TV scroll down a

1243
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:40,310
little bit annual see the link solar

1244
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:43,250
flare the great space adventure well I

1245
00:51:47,530 --> 00:51:44,810
better get myself together and start

1246
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:47,540
working on the finishing touches for my

1247
00:51:53,050 --> 00:51:50,960
talk in Canberra on Saturday hope to see

1248
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,060
you there but for now this is Richard

1249
00:52:01,180 --> 00:51:55,280
Saunders signing off from Sydney

1250
00:52:05,859 --> 00:52:01,190
Australia you've been listening to the

1251
00:52:09,700 --> 00:52:05,869
skeptic zone visit our website at www